Address to the

            Dieppt Veterans

                                           and

                Prisoner’s-of-War

Association

 

        29th September, 1973

 

                               by

     The Earl Mountbatten

                                    of Burma

 

                I have flown over specially in response to the kind invitation of the Dieppe Veterans and Prisoners-of-War Association, not only to meet as many of them as possible but to recall to them the inner story of Operation JUBILEE, the Dieppe Raid.  On several occasions I have tried to explain why this Reconnaissance in Force had to be carried out, how essential it was to our ultimate successful invation of France, and the vast number of allied lives, including of course Canadians, which were saved in the OVERLORD landings on 6th June 1944 and in the previous landings in the Mediterranean as a result of the lessons we learned at Dieppe.

           

I can’t claim to have been very successful so far.  The best chance came when I was invited to give my story of the Dieppe Raid in the Canadian Television Programme “Close up” on 9th September 1962 together with Field Marshal Montgomery and Major-General Roberts.  My account, which lasted 15 to20 minutes, was fully recorded, but when the film was edited most of what I had said was left on the cutting room floor.  The way the film editor fitted in what was left of my contribution destroyed the impact of the tribute I tried to pay. I made a note on seeing the final version that they included me saying “It is impossible to over-estimate the value of the Dieppe Raid.  It was the turning point in the technique of invasion.  Many vital lessons were learnt.”  Then the editor cut in a Company Commander saying “Well, I don’t think it did much good”.  So his was the last opinion heard; hardly the way to round off the lessons learnt.

           

I tried again to put my views across at the 25th Anniversary commemoration at Dieppe itself on 19th August 1967.  At a large luncheon attended by Canadian and British Veterans with many high level representatives from both countries and France present, I spoke both in French and English.  I gather that it was really only the French media who gave a fairy full account of my speech.  As what I want to say I believe to be important to a proper understanding of the Dieppe Raid’s place in history of the overall Allied Victory, I was specially glad to be able to accept your invitation to come here and speak to the very people who were so deeply involved.

           

I began by looking up again all the Reports and Official accounts to refresh my memory and then wrote out a full factual narrative of all that occurred.  It was far too detailed and too long for an after dinner speech, besides most of you have your own first hand knowledge of the events and will have read the published accounts.  So you will no doubt be relieved to hear I decided to scrub that and to confine my remarks to my own involvement and how the operation finally took the form it did.  But above all I want to explain why it was carried out, why it was absolutely indispensable to carry it out and the extraordinary value we all gained from it.

 

            Let me start by telling you that in 1942 I was the British Chief of Combined Operations.  Together with the First Sea Lord, the Chief of the Imperial General Staff and the Chief of the Air Staff, we four formed the British Chiefs of Staff Committee.  My special responsibility was to prepare for the invasion.  Our Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, told me that I was to devise the techniques of amphibious landings and to design and acquire the appurtenances and appliances needed for the invasion.  I was to train vast numbers of soldiers, sailors and airmen to work as a single team in Combined Operations.

 

            I was to prepare the first plans for the return to the Continent with General Paget, the Commander-in-Chief of our Home Forces, under whom the Canadian Corps was then serving.  And meanwhile I was to carry on with the Commando raids to keep our offensive spirit alive, learn the technique of landing on the enemy occupied coasts and keep the Nazis on the ‘qui vive’.

 

            Almost my first job was to get many more landing craft designed and built and to take up and convert more merchant ships to carry them.  It was not until the Summer of 1942 that I had managed to acquire enough landing ships and landing craft to lift the best part of a Division for a simultaneous assault.  So clearly we had to try and see what would happen in an opposed landing with so many landing craft manoeuvring together in the dark.

 

            We all know so much about the great landings and invasions which took place AFTER Dieppe that it is difficult now to visualize the state of practical ignorance from which we suffered in Combined Operations Headquarters BEFORE Dieppe.  Brigadier Bernard Fergusson (now Lord Ballantrae) in his excellent story of Combined Operations, which he called “The Watery Maze”, starts his account of Dieppe by quoting people who now say that it should not have been necessary to stage an Operation at such a cost in human life to learn a lot of obvious lessons.  He goes on “They were not so obvious then as they seem to us in retrospect.  Even the law of gravity was obscure not so long ago”.

 

            I told my staff to give me a list of possible targets.  Obviously we really wanted to take a port because even if the invasion itself took place across open beaches, a sheltered port would be necessary immediately as weather statistics showed that one could not rely on more than four consecutive days fine enough to go on landing reinforcements, ammunition, vehicles and stores across open beaches.  And if we could not do so the enemy could build up faster than us and fling us back into the sea.  Finally we selected Dieppe, a small but worthwhile port in an opening in a long line of cliffs.  It was near enough for air cover to be provided from airfields in the South of England, and to allow of the sea passage being made almost entirely under cover of the short summer darkness.

           

            It contained a small but first class port and facilities, and photo reconnaissance revealed many invasion barges and coastal craft, which could be removed and brought back to England by a “cutting out” party, once the port had been captured.

 

            My own staff put up a plan designed, on my instructions, to avoid a frontal assault.  A battalion of Infantry and a battalion of the new Churchill tanks would land at Quiberville, six miles west of Dieppe where the beach appeared to be suitable.  They would go flat out for the local airfield and the heights just West of Dieppe itself.  Whoever held those heights could command the Dieppe Front.  Two battalions of infantry would land at Pourville which was only two miles west of the harbour entrance at the mouth of a small river and support this pincer movement.  Finally two battalions would be landed at Puys, a mile east of the harbour, leaving two more to remain afloat under the Land Force Commander’s hand as a reserve.

 

            At this stage I put the whole project up to my fellow members of the Chiefs of Staff Committee verbally.  They saw the vital necessity for such an operation and we quickly obtained the Prime Minister’s enthusiastic approval in principle.  But the Chief of the Imperial General Staff, Field Marshal Alan Brooke, insisted that the Land Force planning should be done under the direction of Home Forces, as the number of soldiers was so much greater than the few commandos for whom my staff normally planned.  In fact the Committee would not approve an outline plan until this had been done.  I had intended to use the Royal Marine Division and Commandos, who were well trained for the job.  But the Canadian Corps had enthusiastic Infantry Divisions who had been pleading for active service.  The decision that the Canadians should replace the Royal Marines was a high level political decision, and not one in which I was involved.

 

            The Canadians were in the South Eastern Command under General Montgomery and so the C-in-C Home Forces delegated the responsibility for the Land Forces plan to Monty and the Canadians.  The Home Forces planners, headed by Monty himself, objected to our C.O.H.Q. plan because Quiberville was six miles from Dieppe and separated from it by two rivers.  If the enemy blew up the bridges the tanks could not reach their objectives.  Further they claimed that if the landing at Quiberville took place earlier overall surprise would be lost.  They insisted that the tanks must land simultaneously and much nearer the harbour and the only possible beach for this was on the Dieppe front itself.  This meant a frontal assault.

 

            On the 25th April I called a meeting at which I took the chair, to thrash out the pros and cons of the two plans.  I came out strongly against the frontal attack but the Home Forces planners stuck to their guns, maintaining that a heavy bombing attack of maximum intensity on the defences immediately before the landing craft touched down and followed by low flying attacks would counter-balance the risks of the frontal attack.

 

            As the Chiefs of Staff had given Home Forces the authority to make their plan I had to yield and the frontal assault was put into the outline plan which was approved by the Chiefs of Staff, which included myself.  So I shared in the responsibility for approving the frontal assault, because I felt that a Divisional Reconnaissance in Force was indispensable to planning a successful invasion later on.

 

            Force Commanders were now appointed.  The Naval Force Commander was a Rear Admiral who was due for another job and went to it when the weather cancelled the first attempt.  So he does not come into the final picture.  Major General J.H. Roberts, Commanding the 2nd Canadian Division, who were to form the bulk of the Land Forces, was appointed Land Force Commander and Air Vice Marshal Trafford Leigh Mallory, who commanded 11 fighter Group, was appointed Air Force Commander.  I was with him at his headquarters in Uxbridge throughout the operation.

 

            Early in June I was sent by the Prime Minister to Washington to discuss future high level strategy with the President and the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff.  While I was in the U.S.A. a meeting of the Force Commanders was held on 5th June in my Combined Operations Headquarters, with the South Eastern Army Commander in the Chair.  At this meeting it was decided to forego the maximum intensity bombing attack, mainly because the army feared the bombing would clutter the streets with debris and impede the movement of our tanks.  Field Marshal Montgomery wrote in his memoirs “I should not myself have agreed with these changes.  The demoralization of the enemy defences by preliminary bombing was essential (as was done in Normandy in 1944) just before the troops touched down on the beaches”.  Fergusson writes “Quite so; and this was the view of the C.O.H.Q. planners, and one of the lessons painfully learned at Dieppe; but it was evidently not apparent to all at the meeting on 5th June 1942, and it was at the request of the Military and Air Force Commanders that the bombers were dispensed with.  This is one passage in Montgomery’s book where his memory has played him false.  Far from not agreeing with the change, he was in the chair at the meeting where the decision was taken; and he is not on record in the minutes as having demurred.”.

 

            I was really taken aback when I heard about this on my return from America and raised the matter with Field Marshal Alan Brooke who insisted that the Force Commanders must be allowed to have their way.  They did, and we certainly learnt the lesson that you cannot capture a port without heavy bombardment in a painful but decisive way.

 

            My chief Naval Planner was Captain Jock Hughes Hallett, who had been working hard and brilliantly with the planners.  On 30th June the Prime Minister wished to hold one final review of the outlook for the Dieppe Raid which was then timed to take place on or shortly after the 5th July.  He wanted to be quite certain that it would be right to go on with it.  I brought Hughes-Hallett with me.  Field Marshal Alan Brooke was present, and General Ismay and Major General Hollis of the Secretariat completed the meeting.  After I had explained the part Hughes-Hallett had played in the planning to Winston Churchill, the latter turned to him and asked whether he could guarantee success.

 

            The Chief of the Imperial General Staff interrupted and told Hughes-Hallett not to reply.  “If he, or  anyone else, could guarantee success: Alan Brooke said “there would indeed be no object in doing the operation.  It is just because no-one has the slightest idea what the outcome will be that the operation is necessary”.  Winston then said that this was not a moment at which he wanted to be taught by adversity.  “In that case” said Alan Brooke, “you must abandon the idea of invading France because no responsible General will be associated with any planning for invasion until we have an operation at least the size of the Dieppe raid behind us to study and base our plans upon.”

 

            The great Field Marshal spoke with such firm conviction that Winston Churchill at once agreed that if those were his considered views the operation must go forward.  This dramatic confrontation made it quite clear that the invasion hung on the raid, in other words “NO RAID – NO INVASION”.  Please bear this tremendously important discussion and decision in mind as I go on.

 

            But first let me say that I strongly supported Alan Brooke, and although I was unhappy at a frontal assault especially without maximum intensity bombardment, this was what the Army and Air Force authorities, and the Canadians in particular, insisted on.  If I had opposed them successfully it could only have resulted in the cancellation of the Operation.

 

            I did try and persuade the First Sea Lord to let us have heavy naval bombardment support from battleships or cruisers but he categorically refused and pointed out that naval gunfire of this weight would merely increase the debris which the army wished to avoid.  He summed up “Battleships by daylight off the French Coast!  You must be mad, Dickie”.  I replied “Sir, when the actual invasion comes all your available battleships and cruisers will be used”.

            I always allowed members of my staff who had any responsibility in connection with a raid to go on it to watch how their plans worked out.  But of course they had to be fitten in conveniently and they had to be really enthusiastic volunteers.  Captain Hughes-Hallett was particularly keen to go in with the landing craft at Dieppe and land with the soldiers.  With my full approval he approached General Roberts who arranged for him to be attached to the Camerons of Canada.

 

            On June 10th he reported to a Major of the Security Service in a London apartment and was dressed up and kitted out as a private soldier.  He was taught how Privates spoke to Corporals in a Canadian Regiment and how to behave in the presence of an Officer.  Alas his military career opened inauspiciously as he had not realised how very slippery the steel shod army boots could be, with the result that on reaching the street he immediately slipped and fell heavily and was ignominiously helped to his feet by a kindly old lady.

 

            Eventually he arrived at the station and was directed to a special troop train.  He tried to sit down but the seats were too narrow to sit on with his pack o his back.  So he stood in the corridor until a friendly young soldier not only helped him off with his pack but promised to help him on with it at the end of the journey.

 

            He finally joined the Camerons in a tented camp near Wootton Creek in the Isle of Wight.  He was received in a very friendly way and was struck by the informality all round.  The adjutant had been told to expect an ‘other rank’ from C.O.H.Q. employed on clerical duties who was being sent to the Camerons for a period of infantry training.  He assigned Hughes-Hallett to No. 16 Platoon and he was housed with nine other men of this platoon in one tent.  His section was commanded by Lance-Corporal Bender, a 22 year old Winnipeg farmer for whom he quickly acquired not only respect but sincere admiration.

 

            Hughes-Hallett knew what his friends in the Camerons did not, that they were due to take part in a real raid on 20th June.  However, at the rehearsal the landing craft failed to make the correct land fall and so it was decided to postpone the 20th June date to enable another rehearsal to take place.  When the raid did not take place on 20th June he could not think what to do.  It was one thing to join the Camerons, but quite another matter to leave them and get clear of the Isle of Wight.  But my staff had not forgotten and we retrieved him.  On 22nd June Captain Hughes-Hallett and key members of my staff accompanied me onboard my little Headquarters ship, the SISTER ANNE and watched the second rehearsal on the morning of the 23rd in West Bay.  This went so much better that I gave the “all clear” for the raid to go ahead on one of the new dates which fitted tide and weather conditions.

 

            On 2nd July Hughes-Hallett was once more dressed up as a Private by the Security Major and rejoined the Camerons at Newhaven eventually ending up onboard the ROYAL EAGLE, very crowded as there was also a battalion of French Canadians onboard.  Troops were briefed about Dieppe and Hughes-Hallett reported that there was wild enthusiasm among all of them.  Alas weather conditions were unsuitable during the only possible days of this period so the operation had to be cancelled and on 7th July he returned to C.O.H.Q.  His experience with the Camerons brought out the fact that it was unreasonable to expect the army to feed troops and make the other domestic arrangements onboard ship which as a result were later turned over to the Navy in Combined Operations.

 

            I held urgent and serious discussions with him and all concerned about what to do next.  Then I talked the situation over with the Chiefs of Staff and the Prime Minister.  All were agreed that unless we could carry out an actual raid before the end of the “raiding season” our return to the Continent would be delayed, while awaiting the necessary operational experience in 1943.  But time simply did not permit of finding a new target, gathering the necessary intelligence, making a new plan and carrying out new rehearsals.

 

            Then we had a brainwave, so unusual and daring that I decided that nothing should be put on paper.  As you all know, this brainwave was to remount the same operation and carry it out in mid-August.  I put the idea to the Chiefs of Staff and then we discussed it with the Prime Minister.  Candidly all were startled and at first argued against it on security grounds.  I persuaded them that if they considered a reconnaissance in Force was still necessary in the Summer of 1942 then there was absolutely no alternative target that could be got ready in time.  The original Naval Force Commander had taken up a new appointment; the only man who could possibly take his place at such short notice was Captain Hughes-Hallett himself, who as my Chief Naval Planner knew all the details.

 

            General Roberts and Captain Hughes-Hallett agreed that as the last rehearsal went so well no further rehearsal would be needed if the main plan remained the same, thus no-one would have forewarning that the Raid was to be re-mounted.  Two new small infantry landing ships had meanwhile become available who could carry commandos by sea in place of paratroops, to put the coastal anti-ship batteries at Berneval and Varengeville out of action.  You see the meteorological conditions for the use of paratroops are different from those needed for a seaborne landing, as the former depend on the height of the cloud base.  These might well not coincide with the conditions suitable for landing from the sea.  In fact as it turned out the airborne conditions would not have been right during the 19th August period, when the raid was carried out, and if we had not substituted commandos for paratroops the raid would have had to be cancelled again, and this time for the rest of 1942.

 

            But Mr. Churchill and the Chiefs of Staff remained understandably worried about security.  I explained that although German aircraft had reported the assembly of ships and craft in the Spithead area, and had finally attacked them, there was no suggestion that they knew what the actual mission of the force was.  And if by some unsuspected chance they had stumbled on Dieppe as our target, they would never for amoment think we should be so idiotic as to remount the operation on the same target.  Furthermore, the assault shipping could be conveniently dispersed to nearby harbours in the meanwhile.  I got the Prime Minister and Chiefs of Staff to agree to keep no written minutes or decisions, Winston expressly warning that the First Lord of the Admiralty should not be told beforehand.  What a surprise he must have had when he first heard of Dieppe on the BBC news broadcast.  By this time, too, General Montgomery’s responsibilities had been taken over by Lieutenant General H.G.D. Crerar, who commanded the 1st Canadian Corps, and he gave his complete approval.

 

            At all events it worked and secrecy and security were so complete that the Germans ran a routine coastal convoy right across our leading Flotilla on the eastern wing of 0350.  It made a mess of the Commando landing at Berneval though a brave and resourceful Major got 23 men ashore who by sniping at the heavy guns prevented them firing at the ships.  But such a convoy would, of course, have been cancelled and German coastal craft sent out to attack our ships if they had known we were coming.  Incidentally, the other Commando successfully knocked out the battery at Varengeville and brought prisoners back.

 

            The German records after the war revealed that their High Command had no inkling that any raid  was mounted or even planned for August.  On the contrary, Field Marshall von Runstedt relaxed the degree of preparedness, which had been in force in June and July, and as a result the Luftwaffe Commander in the Dieppe area actually granted extended night leave until noon on 19th August, the very day of the Raid.  Unfortunately for us, the Major General Commanding the Dieppe Garrison had countermanded his Commander-in-Chief’s relaxation – not because he had any foreknowledge but because he liked to use his local authority to do so while weather and tidal conditions remained favourable to raiding operations.  This meant that the soldiers were always on the alert before dawn and could not be caught napping as the Luftwaffe were.

 

            Now we must admit that our intelligence greatly underestimated the strength of the Dieppe garrison.  Furthermore, the anti-tank guns for the actual Dieppe beach were kept housed under cover by day and were only run out after dark each night, so they never appeared on any aerial reconnaissance photos.  Machine gun posts covering the frontal and eastern landings were hidden in the high ground and thus unsuspected.  Yes, we must admit it, our intelligence of the enemy strength and defences was as poor at Dieppe as it was good by the time we came to the Normandy landings.

 

            At Pourville too, our beach intelligence was poor as the gradients were too flat and shallow to enable LCTs to land their tanks in support and this was the primary reason for the failure of the troops to secure the vital high ground at the western end of the Dieppe frontal beaches, in spite of the outstanding gallantry which won Colonel Merrill his V.C.  We were able to remedy our lack of knowledge of beaches and approached gradients for Normandy by methods developed after and as a result of Dieppe.

 

            However, I don’t want to depart from my promise not to go into details of the Operation in this speech.  Our losses were very heavy and it was the shock of these losses which really made us appreciate how woefully inadequate our intelligence and techniques were at Dieppe and I am convinced that it was this that put us on the right road for the intelligence and techniques for the actual invasion.

 

            And here I must refer to another nasty shock later on when Hitler ordered the Dieppe prisoners-of-war to be manacled and chained.  It was typically ruthless and inhuman of him to do this to men who had fought a clean fight.  I rushed round to Winston Churchill to see what we could do.  We considered reprisals, chaining up an equivalent number of German prisoners.  But this would probably have led to counter-reprisals and have made matters worse.

 

            It is no good entering into a competition in beastliness with a real beast; or if you will allow me to quote a rather coarse American saying “Never get into a pissing match with a skunk”.  So we rejected reprisals and in due course Hitler allowed his vicious orders to lapse, but Winston assured me that this would be a war crime for which Hitler would be tried after he surrendered.

 

            And it turned out that I would have been in the same boat if we had lost the war for I have my file from Gestapo Headquarters and the last entry reads “When we lay our hands on this man he is to be tried” and it is signed “Himmler”.

 

            I mentioned previously that I always tried to let my staff go on raids they had helped to plan.  Two were killed and nine wounded at Dieppe, including Colonel Hillsinger, an American Airman on my staff who had his foot blown off onboard the Headquarters Destroyer, the CALPE.  An Australian Air Commodore onboard the CALPE was wounded and so was Hughes-Hallett himself, though now in Naval uniform on the bridge.  I vividly remember his telling me that after 25% of the CALPE’s ship’s company had become casualties, a young officer asked him whether he had ever believed the history books when they spoke of the scuppers running with blood.  “If not take a look” he added quietly.

 

            Finally:  Was Dieppe a success or failure?

 

            Those who did not appreciate what we were really after obviously regarded it as a failure as we failed to capture and hold the port long enough to send the cutting out party in and bring back the enemy invasion craft.  The withdrawal of the assault troops started on time but the enemy’s command of the beaches prevented the landing craft, in spite of the courage of their crews, from bringing back most of the soldiers.  The idea of failure was underlined by the casualty figures.  Out of just over 15,000 soldiers, sailors and airmen who fought at Dieppe, 4,260 became casualties, that is just over a quarter.  But the full brunt fell on the Canadians, for out of 4,963 Canadian soldiers who fought at Dieppe, 3,367 became casualties, or just over 2 our of every 3.  This not only appeared to be catastrophic but at that stage of the war, before you Canadians had really been in action, it must have been a terrible emotional shock.

 

            Perhaps it would help in assessing the Casualty List if we look at the number who were killed or succumbed to their wounds, or died in prisoner-of-war camps, and exclude those who survived the war and came back.  In fact I would like to exclude nearly all those who are at this dinner or qualified to attend.  Then we find that 4,056 out of the 4,963 Canadians survived.  In other words 907, or under one in five of the Canadian Forces who took part lost their lives as a direct result of the Raid.

 

            I do not wish to imply that this is not an appallingly high figure but let us see what was achieved by this sacrifice.  From the lessons we learnt at Dieppe all subsequent landings in the Mediterannean and elsewhere benefited directly.  But the effect on the OVERLORD casualties was fantastic.  In the 1944 D-Day landings of 156,000 men who took part in the assault, there were only 2,500 casualties, or one man in sixty.  At Dieppe, even excluding prisoners-of-war, the comparable losses were about one in five.  So twelve times as many men, including of course many thousands of Canadians, survived the D-Day assaults and I am convinced that this was directly the result of the lessons we learned at Dieppe.

 

            What is more, the Germans learnt the wrong lessons from Dieppe.  They were certain we would have to go for ports, for they too knew that weather would preclude more than a few days of reinforcements and supplies across open beaches.  In fact Dieppe appeared to have shown them that we meant to go for ports, probably small ports, but would put in much stronger forces and support next time.  So the enemy wasted their efforts in reinforcing their port defences, especially in the Calais Boulogne area which all Generals, allied and enemy, thought was the right place for the assault.  But we learnt overwhelmingly that we could not capture a port by frontal assault without such heavy bombardment as to destroy the port facilities we needed for our own use, and we in C.O.H.Q. stuck to our conviction that the assault should be across the beaches of Normandy.

 

            We had already been investigating trying to produce sheltered water off beaches.  We now came firmly to the conclusion that we would not invade without prefabricated mobile ports which we could take with us to the open beaches which were lightly defended.  So the MULBERRIES were largely developed from our experience at Dieppe.  So Dieppe unexpectedly, but most fortunately, became one of the Great Deception Operations of the war.

 

            In the Combined operations Report on Dieppe the greatest lesson recorded was the need for overwhelming bombing and fire support.  New Craft such as the LCT(R)s were devised, which could fire 1,080 heavy rockets on a single patch of beach in 26 seconds.  This was equivalent to 80 cruisers bombarding simultaneously.  Bombardment support from battleships, monitors and cruisers, as well as destroyers, was written into the plan and of course overwhelming aircraft bombing over many repliminary weeks.  As a result the proportion of casualties in the Normandy landings in 1944 was reduced by a factor of 12 and we were able to make sure of an undamaged port to land reinforcements, ammunition and stores at a rate faster than the enemy could build up against us.

 

            It was, of course, distressing that these lessons had to be learnt at such a heavy price, but I must repeat that without Dieppe OVERLORD could not safely have ever taken place.  And then how much longer would the war, with all its horrors and mass murder of civilians have lasted?  So it is to all of you who fought with such gallantry and courage at Dieppe and above all those who fell that we owe the speeding up of final Victory.  In a previous speech I Quoted the Duke of Wellington as having said that the Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton, I say the successful landing in Normandy was won on the beaches of Dieppe.

 

            It was a vital stepping stone to victory and you, the heroes of Dieppe, were the few who made possible the later Victory of the many.  You can hold your heads higher than ever; your country, your allies, the free world should all be proud of you forever.

 

 

~~~ Typed by CAP YI Angela Mennie – Oct. 21, 2005 ~~~